Peter SmytheA Different Kind of Word Preacher

10 comments...What do you think?

1. Posted by Larry 22nd February, 2008 at 9:24 am

   Well?!?!, you have peaked my interest. We are looking forward to hearing more. Blessings on you.

2. Posted by Jared White 22nd February, 2008 at 9:58 am

   Yes, I too am very interested to hear where you’re going with this, as I’m one of those skeptics you referred to in the podcast. :) However, I have to say that example you gave of a church that denies services to Christians who don’t tithe is deplorable. Putting a price tag on helping people within a ministry context is against everything that Jesus stood for. I think those leaders forgot the “freely you have received, now freely give” part of the Gospel. :)

3. Posted by Peter Smythe 22nd February, 2008 at 11:00 am

   Larry and Jared,

   Thanks for the comments. Truly, I believe that once I get through the series you’ll find yourselves even more enthused about the Gospel.

   I do hope the podcasts are turning out okay. I’m trying to keep it all as informal as possible. Frankly it’s harder to do than speaking to juries and judges.

4. Posted by AmeriKan 22nd February, 2008 at 8:44 pm

   Peter, I surprised my self and managed to muddy my way through the first tithing podcast. :-)

   I was disappointed with the use of the Colossians, Ephesians, Hebrews and Galatians scriptures to justify your position….very weak. Some would say you were splitting hairs…I think it was stretching scripture to the breaking point. If I were judge and jury, I would have to send you home for another try to garner an affirmative decision “from the bench” or a yea verdict from the “jury box.”

   Add this to your homework…Chris Hamer-Hodges ( chrishamer-hodges.blogspot.com ) … for a young UK fella, he has some of the most sound teaching out there on tithing. It was his most commented blog/s…the subject of tithing…around 40 or so. Now, I assure you, he will make “your hair stand on end.” :-)

5. Posted by Peter Smythe 23rd February, 2008 at 7:48 am

   AmeriKan,

   Thanks for the comment.

   First, this Part 1 is just an introduction to the subject. The purpose of this podcast was to “till the ground,” so to speak. Tithing as obligation, activation, etc. has been taught for so long in our generation that many folks immediately turn off any preaching to the contrary. And that is evidenced by the subscription cancellations that we’ve seen.

   Out of deference, I read through Chris Hamer-Hodges’s teachings on tithing and I will be addressing virtually all of the scriptures that he presents on the topic. As one needs to in order to justify tithing, he refers much to the Old Testament and calls it a “tithing principle” and mix-and-matches Old with New. Tithing as a “principle,” is not in the Old Testament (it was an ordinance of the Law) and, frankly, to render it a “principle” to carry it over to the New Testament is at odds with Paul’s letter to the Galatians (why shouldn’t circumcision also be NT? Abraham did it.).

   With reference to the law analogy, I believe that it be good to keep in mind that those who preach that tithing withstood the ending of the Old Covenant bear the burden of establishing that it continues in with the New. The same goes for the argument about Abraham (reference to Abraham’s circumcision). As I mention about the basics cited in Hebrews, tithing is nowhere to be found.

   The New Testament speaks much about giving and financially supporting ministers of the Gospel, but it speaks in the context of a completely new paradigm.

6. Posted by AmeriKan 23rd February, 2008 at 10:37 am

   “NT speaks in a completely new paradigm.” The NT is a fulfillment of the Old and I do not believe we can scratch the Old for the sake of the New. Jesus came to actually fulfill the Old. The exciting part about the NT is that it is a “law of liberty.” We are not bound to the tithe but rather we can give more than the tithe! The three Gospel accounts of Matt. 7:2 show the results of the liberty we have in giving, being in that it is not limited to the tithe. The sad part is…we have a lot of stingy, squeaky tight, selfish Christians.

   When I was growing up, the Methodists did not teach tithing but their alternative was the church finance committee coming to your house to solicit your yearly giving pledge. I think it was a good idea. As for receiving counseling and benefits from the church because you are a tithing member, I think is a very good idea. Same for the ability to vote on church issues…only giving/tithing members have that option to participate in the management of of church business. The secular/government world requires the paying of taxes, etc. in order to receive the benefits, ie. paved/repaired streets/roads to drive on, decent schools for your children to attend, public drinking fountains to wet your whistle on a hot day, etc….if you don’t pay your fair share, even a few dollars, why should you receive the “bennies.” This is aside from benevolence which the church should be doing and the government already does.

7. Posted by Jared White 23rd February, 2008 at 12:44 pm

   Oh man, I was with you AmeriKan until you got to the “receiving benefits/counseling” part. Now of course there are legitimate businesses out there that sell products or services of a spiritual nature — I don’t mind at all when I go to Christian conferences and they charge for admission, products, etc. I don’t mind Christian counselors that charge for their services as a profession. But within the ministry context, a church must, I say, MUST provide all that it freely gives to all those in need, not just a select few. If people feel led to donate back in appreciation, that’s great, but if not, they shouldn’t be turned away at the gate. To turn them away, IMHO, is unbiblical and antithetical to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

8. Posted by AmeriKan 23rd February, 2008 at 10:05 pm

   Jared, I can see you may have not been a member of a church long or been involved with the management of a local church. It behooves every church and its administration to prayerfully consider to whom and where they give their benevolent dollars, regardless who comes knocking at their door. I assure you that within any given week, there will be those individuals who frequent “church row” and will give you most any “sad, sob story” about their plite in life and why you need to give them money/or aid. Trust me, it happens every day. If you are not aware of or have not seen it, stay around here on earth a few more years and you will see it, especially, if you are a church member in any kind of leadership position for very long.

   One church we were members of designated 30% of their annual income towards benevolence but that was dispersed with much discretion. Every individual and situation was different and had to be considered on a case by case basis. Word gets out about the “generous churches” and those looking for a handout will find there way to your door. Sometimes, it is hard to tell the legitimate from the false.

   Because of my position in life, I have had people come to me for $$… some I gave to, some I took to the store, some I gave a loan to and others received nothing. And then there were those who asked for nothing and the Lord said, “Go buy him a new suit and shoes.” Or he has cancer and cannot afford to go to Tulsa for a week of healing school…”Pay his way.”

   Now, if every church designated 30% towards benevolence, many of the vast needs out there would be taken care of. But, Jared, the needs are often overwhelming and most local churches do what they can, some more than others. We have an annual coat and blanket drive for the needy in the inner city. It is heartbreaking when there are not enough coats to disperse but we are getting better each year.

   One of my greatest lessons in life was when we did not have much. I was in school and did not have money to pay all the bills. A friend from church came by and left sacks of groceries on the porch. In the bottom of one sack was $$ to pay the bills.

9. Posted by Jared White 25th February, 2008 at 10:17 am

   Hey, I completely agree with what you’re saying AmeriKan. I think you misunderstand me. Obviously churches don’t have unlimited resources and must “discriminate” to a degree based on what needs are the most pressing. What I’m saying is that discriminating based on which church members are tithing or if someone goes to the church regularly is not right. If you’re going to provide a free service, provide it to the people who need it regardless of social or financial standing.

10. Posted by AmeriKan 25th February, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    Yes, I see what you are saying/asking, Jered. In churches I have been in the past and I think this is a fair way to handle it, the members were given first priority, when it came to benevolence. In the case of tithing member vs. a regular attender, I personally believe the tithing member should receive first priority. The scripture, “A workman is worthy of his hire,” indicates to me that remuneration for work provided should be no different for the tithing member… “what you sow you shall reap.” I think there should be a reward for faithfulness, just as what church you give your money to, entitles you to some legitimate input. Your tax money entitles you to certain perks and taxes are required, like it or not. I personally don’t have a problem with all of this because when I give to my local church, I am giving as unto the Lord. The flip side of this is, I would not continue to give to a local church where I saw a misuse of the funds. I have that choice.

    There is enough in the NT about giving, that I believe giving monetarily equates with other types of giving, ie., time, talents, hospitality, etc. Giving is a real heart issue because man’s carnal nature is to be selfish. And there have been enough money mongrels, historically, that it doesn’t take much to become “gunshy.” But I do believe there is much to be said about, “If you can get to a man’s billfold, you can get to his heart.” Why would one not want to be a blessing to people and especially to a local church where you are fed spiritually and regularly connect and interact with those of like precious faith. If you have my heart, you have my billfold.

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